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View Full Version : H.263 vs. H.264 Issues


jcicc
04-08-2008, 08:41 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is a long post and I apologize, but I wanted to get all the facts in so I could cut right to my issues.
This is kind of a weird problem that happened to me recently. One day an external vendor in India was calling one of our sites in NJ. Both sites were Polycom VSX 7000s and were using ISDN. When the call connected, there was no video to either side, only audio. I noted that the two communicated at H.264. After numerous attempts, I had them call an FX that we had that communicated at H.263. The call went through with no issues. Since it was only a one-time thing, I didn't delve too deeply into it at the time.

But now a strange thing happened. I have an office in Santiago Chile that has a VSX 7000 and two Sony TL50s. They were trying to communicate to Sony TL50s in NJ and FL over our IP network. They had the same problem--they were only getting audio. I had all the machines calling each other locally and they worked fine, so I knew there was nothing wrong with any hardware. I tried the same trick that I did with India and had them dial H.263 as opposed to H.264 and the call went through.

Since the problem occurred between like systems (as well as Polycom to Sony), I can assume that hardware compatibility is not the issue. Since the issue occured over ISDN and IP, I wouldn't think that the transport is the issue, although I should point out that our Chile office uses AT&T MPLS to communicate through our network, and India was connecting to NJ on ISDN via an AT&T PRI.

So here's my questions:
Has anyone ever run across this? Is there something in H.264 that would prevent these systems connecting in their own native video protocol but work fine in H.263? (Remember that domestically these systems communicated at H.264 with no problems--it only seems to be an issue internationally.) More importantly, is there some way to correct this, or at least force the Sonys and Polycoms to roll back to H.263 on their own?

Nellis
04-10-2008, 05:24 PM
On the vsx7000 units, go to the web itnerface, then go to:
Admin Settings>Network>Call Preference> Check the box for "enagle basic mode"

See if that resolves the problem.

jcicc
04-11-2008, 08:56 AM
Hi Nellis, yes I'm aware of that on the polycom but that rolls it back to H.261. I was hoping not to go back that far. Thanks anyway!

cfaasen
04-17-2008, 12:20 PM
Have you tried reinstalling the software? Seeing this both an ISDN and IP issue It would lie within the algorthym

Wise82Guy
03-13-2009, 10:51 AM
Software version on both endpoints?

You'd probably need traces/loggers off both devices to see what they're complaining about.

Wiggy70
04-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Do not forget that 264 will probably be running at twice the frame rate of 263. This can cause issues if you have a lack of headroom in your BW allocation from your Comms provider, especially when you take into account the 20% overhead that IP imposes. Case in point, VSX7000 192k h.263 call consumes about 230k, 192k h.264 call can consume about 262k.

Norsk
04-29-2009, 06:48 PM
Do not forget that 264 will probably be running at twice the frame rate of 263. This can cause issues if you have a lack of headroom in your BW allocation from your Comms provider, especially when you take into account the 20% overhead that IP imposes. Case in point, VSX7000 192k h.263 call consumes about 230k, 192k h.264 call can consume about 262k.

Wow. I did not know 264 ran twice the frame rate as 263. Good to know. Could this be why most VTC bridge hosts require all endpoints to use H.264 as a standard video algorithm? Is there any conflict when one inpoint connects to another with H.263 and the other is set to H.264? ...just curious. :paranoid:

Sean Lessman
04-29-2009, 09:39 PM
Do not forget that 264 will probably be running at twice the frame rate of 263.

I do not think this is a correct statement.

...20% overhead that IP imposes.

This is just a guesstimate and is not a hard number. The overhead depends on a number of factors some of which are dynamic.

Case in point, VSX7000 192k h.263 call consumes about 230k, 192k h.264 call can consume about 262k.

Again, bandwidth consumption due to video has a lot to do with instantaneous motion.

Sean

SanjayChouhan
03-02-2010, 08:02 AM
I have a Tandberg and a Sony at two different cities. I have to use H.323+ since the Sony (funnily) doesn't change over to 264, even though the option exists. I was getting 'smearing' of the image with whatever I tried (and, by God, I tried a HELL of a lot!). Now I have a Tandberg at both ends but I am STILL getting the same issue.

One thing that I noticed with the Tandbergs is that one transmit shows a zer (or near zero) packet loss but there is a severe reception packet loss. Now what could cause a packet loss in one direction but not in the other ??

I have near about torn my (few) hair out but I am unable to find an explanation or a solution for this weird behaviour. Can someone help?

leprechaun
03-29-2010, 09:26 AM
Did you try to tracert between the two?

Marty Marlow
05-05-2010, 07:51 PM
Just want to say that 263, and 264 have the same fram rate. 30 frames a sec, turn in to 33.3ms frames(I/P/B)... that cannot be changed.. at 60 frames a sec you get 16.6 ms frame rate.. that is the same in both algorithms...it is the standard from the electrical engineering side of the frame coding.

Sean Lessman
05-05-2010, 08:04 PM
Just want to say that 263, and 264 have the same fram rate... that cannot be changed..

It most certainly can. H.263 defines specific framerates of 7.5, 10, 15 and 30 and these are maximums, as you can vary the framerate instantaneously.

H.264 specifies MaxMBPS (Maximum Macroblocks Per Second...i.e. 8x8=256 pixels for one Macroblock as an example) which is the maximum number of macroblocks (pixels) changing instaneously that the decoder can deal with per second. A second value MaxFS (Maximum Frame Size) defines the maximum resolution (height x width of the image). Using these two values, framerate is derived -- hopefully you can see how, but if you want me to explain I will.

So in both cases, H.263 and H.264 define variable framerates. And there is nothing in the standards that say you have to support the full 30fps, so you could support only 15fps for one codec and 30fps for another in your product.

Sean

Marty Marlow
05-05-2010, 08:17 PM
You are taking the statement out of context…
I made a comment in reference to the earlier statement that the frame differences between 263, and 264… they are not different... I understand completely that the fps can change but based on the fps the frame intervals change based on a mathematical equation that has no variables. The equation is the same for every video algorithm. I just used 30, and 60 as a reference.

Percival
05-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Im Sorry for posting unrelated issues.. Cars are not raleted to this thread.